What was the greatest spiritual challenge of your life?

There's only one opinion you have to worry about.
And I think you know whose it is.

If this is your greatest fear, and you posted it for us to read…then you are a true warrior. Bravo!

I know a lot of wonderful Christians and I am glad to know another one!  I love Christ, Mary, The Saints, and Angels!  Some wonderful rituals come from this faith.  There are many ways to enlightenment.  Some folks will find this through Christ.  I totally honor and respect it. 

I agree with Angel it takes many ways for people to acknowledge God/Divine Source/Spirit so many names but each referring to the same universal consciousness we are all a part of.  I honor you for pushing past the fear and choosing  to share this with all of us.

Its good to see everyone's positive responses to your concerns.  I suspect that no one likes to look judgmental (though we so frequently are when we're  not paying attention), so I think your concerns help us out a lot too.
I wonder if it would help or hurt the conversation and the zaadz mission to take this in my own direction and ask you, since you are a Christian and also a seemingly brave and open-minded fellow, why have you settled on Christianity above those others out there?  I believe, no offense to others who disagree, that it is a bit simplistic to say all religions are essentially the same, though I might be tempted to agree that they may be different paths to a similar goal.
I don't personally fault the religion of Christianity for the pedophilia thing.  That is an institutional issue, and the church by now is almost certainly an abomination compared to what Christ might have envisioned.  We are all human, after all.
There are plenty of people I've met who really dont' believe anything they say in church, because, well, probably because a lot of it isn't true.  They still go, for the community, which is a strong argument. 
Some go for conformity, as it is the 'normal' religion in America.  A Christian with a curious mind, and a critical unbiased mind (and I don't claim all of these qualities by any means.  i can look because I'm not christian), a good look at western religious history, and also at christian history specifically, rips the faith apart, as one of my own philosophy professors pointed out, and as I have also found.  Without rambling too long, I'll just ask, for you or whomever wants to, what makes you stick to it?  Also, what form do you follow?  in these days, with the Gospel of Judas and the Gnostic texts out there, all bets are off, and I wonder if a Christian mightn't be better off ditching all the establishment and just listening to what we know  Jesus said.  We know the Book advocates physical disciplining of children (the rod of punishment i think they call it), but we know the Bible was fashioned together by people with their own interests in mind. 
Please don't take this as a criticism, judgment, or any other fightin' words.  I have no doubt that someone can follow Christianity and be an awesome person, as many are.  But it increasingly seems to show some problems as we learn more and more about its history.  How does an educated Christian view his/her faith, for all its problems, while maintaining his/her beliefs? 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  You're braver than many :)

You know this was also one of my minor concerns when writing my profile recently, but the younger side in me gave in and said you know people should judge you for who you are. Thinking about it now, I hope you and I can show this community and the world just what an enlightened follower of Christ looks like, and that hopefully people think of us when they think of Christians and not what they heard on the news or in the textbooks. You and I, though you are older and more wise, we are both philosophers, or in other-words men on a journey for truth and wisdom. only we follow Christ the greatest example (in my opinion of course). The bible teaches of wisdom truth and knowledge as much as any book ever written on the subject can teach. And we use it as a tool and guide to our own spiritual path to enlightenment. In the end I think Philosophers can be Christians to, and Vic Versa.

I commend you on your bravery, to stand for what you believe in is very admirable. May we both find what we are searching for.

Your welcome! 

I have been learning that Christ is within me and I am a part of the larger body of Christ.  I have the same wisdom and precense as Christ. 

I had a dream where I once said, “I don't have to be Christian to be Christ-Like.” HAHAH!

The light of the world is just that………………light.

………..more light and love in the world is just grand, doesn't really matter where it comes from now does it?

Shine on!

Yes-shine on! 

Christ or Buddha or MLK or Chief Joseph teaches us to SHINE!!

Thats why we are here in thess times & in all times! 

Right on lightenup and everyone!

Peace

Hey Heemes. This is an interesting post……..I was raised Roman Catholic…..even went to a Jesuit High School and a Catholic University…..

First of all welcome, and I don't think any of us would try to deny people or judge them simply based on religion……and I would hope that you feel comfortable..

My problem is not with humble christians, my problem is with the loud, overt, pushy, evangelical/born again types. I also have a problem with religion working its way into our laws.

Have I found Jesus?
Have I found Jesus?
Have I found Jesus, I didn't know he was missing
But I'm pretty sure he's somewhere in this vicinity listening
and I don't know what happens after death or before birth
But Bob was right about heaven and hell being right here on earth
And if Jesus is lost we should go check outside
Cause i think i saw him inside of a homeless guys eyes
And if that is what he is then we should both go help him out
Instead of sitting here shoving religion into each other's mouths

The end is near but the beginning is nearer
So grab the people that you love cuz they will be your clearest mirror
And see the shadow moving in the corner of your eye
And catch those shadows moving in the corner of your eye
Cause a hundred year from now all the people will be new
So there's really only one important thing for us to do
And it's not from the thoughts of the things that you can't
But the echo from the tiny little seed that you plant

-Wookiefoot
“Crumpled up Napkin”

Go for it, Heemes. If anyone has a problem with you trying to be one of Christ’s people… well… they are indeed the one with the problem.

Let that light shine, is all you need to do.

I have not found YOU to be pushy………

But as a free-thinking libertarian concerned about our constitution and our bill of rights, I must say that this statement concernes me:

“In the matter of religion and legislation, what difference does it make if Christian beliefs, pagan beliefs, Muslim beliefs, or Jewish beliefs are a part of our body of law?”

Rush Limbaugh said “The law defines our morality”

God forbid

An important question……

actually, many of you may not find it important at all……

But here it is………and I find that there are many christians who simply refuse to answer it directly……sometimes it takes me 10-20 times before they will answer it, and when they do they sort of hang their head down………

Q: Do you believe that good people who do good deeds and live good lives, but who do not believe that Jesus is God (Buddhists for instance)……do you believe that these people are destined to burn in hell?

ah……….but “yes” or “no”……

Do you believe that these people are destined to burn in hell if they don't take Jesus as God?

As far as allowing religion to influence (or even write!) law……and it's hard to tell what you're saying here, but I don't want morality legislated. I don't want my government adjusted by the “moral majority”. That's how we got prohibition……….

Hello, Heemes.  Thank you for sharing your light with us.  I was one of many friends of the late Brother Wayne Teasdale, a lay Catholic Monk who championed Interspirituality and was a student of Hinduism, and other traditions, the study of which he found to deepen his connection with Jesus.  Wayne wrote “The Mystic Heart” and “A Monk in The World.”  I find some similarities in your description of your personal beliefs.

I honor your integrity in posting your views, so much so that I believe that you will take my reactions in the same respectful sense of inquiry that they are intended.  Above, you wrote, “Doesn't every religion believe in a strong expression of itself?”    My answer is, “no!”   Most modern religions are not based upon domination and prosletyzing, and actually find comfort in the separation between Church and State - because it creates checks and balances that keep one religion from steamrolling over another.  Somewhere, perhaps some religions mellowed out over time, after having gone through a few thousand years experiencing zealotry and resulting degeneration and destructiveness. 

Most non-fundamentalist religions seek to live in respect with their neighbors, not to convert them, not to convince them to enact their perceived values into secular law.  This was one of the factors that led to decentralization in many denominations - the knowledge that man's approximations of “the will of god” can result in more evil than good - the understanding that our leaders are not infallible and that power has a corrupting influence.

These are the lessons of history.  They serve to temper one's ego, but not one's abiding faith in god.  Rather than see this as an artificial separation beteween aspects of life, I see it as providing a deeper focus on our inner lives, on our own personal faith and personal conduct, rather than on our external lives, on our desires to impose our faith upon others.  In the end, America's founding fathers decided that religious freedom meant freedom from any particular religion that might become dominant; freedom from domination by religious fundamentalism that seeks conformity to particular belief systems not based on rational, consensus driven, criteria. 

Heemes, I suspect that you, personally, are more interested in the inner spiritual life and in the creation and nurturing of family and community.  You appear to be an example of the many Catholics I have known who are just plain wonderful, ethical and compassionate people.  It is a joy that you feel free to express youself here.

Peace,

Earon

I'm not sure why you were afraid you'd be judged that way at Zaadz.  There are going on 100,000 members here so there's a little bit of everything.  I could give you the page addresses of a couple real whackjobs I've come across here.  There are people here with all sorts of opinions.  But for a community this large I think the percentage of members who would be judgemental of anyone for their belief system is amazingly small.  Zaadzsters tend to be freethinkers and freethinkers tend to encourage different points of view.  Sameness is stagnation.  It's boring.

Personally, I think Christianity is an abomination, and the world would be a hell of a lot better off if the Romans had never gotten hold of it.  You quote Galileo above, but you neglect to mention that when he said that he was being threatened by the Christian Church.  He had been saying publicly that the earth was round and revolved around the sun, and they didn't like him saying that so they were going to throw him in prison.  In the end he said, “Okay, the earth is flat and the sun goes around the earth”, and they let him stay at home, although they kept a pretty close watch on him to make sure he kept his mouth shut.  He's lucky they didn't put the thumbscrews to him.  That's no joke.

That's the foundation you've chosen to build your spiritual house on, and I think it's a bullshit foundation and a foolish choice.  But it's your choice.  You seem like a sincere and good man, and I don't think any less of you for believing a fairy tale.  I probably believe some fairy tales myself. 

Anyway, I can't imagine many people at Zaadz impugning you for your beliefs.  Here you'll be judged by what you are, if at all.  I can't imagine anybody but me even going so far as to call it bullshit.  Not out loud anyway.

Follow your heart.

What I'm interested in is this:  The Bible is the inspired word of God. 

Do you mean the one put together in England under King James?  Are the Apocrypha also the inspired word of God, or just the books the English clerics chose?  What is the foundation for your belief that the Bible is the work of God and not men?  What are some other works you believe are inspired by God?

Good answer.  Go teach them something.

Peace out,

donny

It is my belief that all mayor religions teach the same as result. The question is : witch door you take to discover that. The Dalai Lama said this in Brussel last year. It's very true. He also said by preference to stick to the religion of your culture and if it is a desire to change always to remember that you live in a country with a specific religious tradition. Belgium is a predominant catholic country, I was baptized catholic, my mother was protestant, I myself I'm a searcher in Buddism.
As to say : follow what is your belief and respect the belief of others.
But I don't see what is fearfull in  saying you're Christian. Not at all.

Hey Heemes, thank you for your answer…….a firm “no”, and I got that……..

Legislating morality to me means government restricting what people can and can't do with their own bodies……..now, of course this would exclude acts which would endanger others directly. I'm more concerned with bedroom activities for instance than with a speed limit. I would say that your rights end at my body. My problem with legislating morality is that the government ends up with more control over my body, and usually, along with it, comes some form of punishment for those who don't conform. There are too many people who wish for the “immoral” to be punished now AND later…….using the police for instance to enforce a moral agenda…..

Something Senator Craig of Idaho should have understood a long time ago……

I understand that the Catolic church is in USA a more difficult subject than in Europe because of the events you mention. I understand also that being honest about your beliefs takes sometimes courage, witch you demonstrated. Wil all Zaadzsters agree ? No. Will all people agree? No. Will some people say : this is really not my cup of tea ? Of course. The proverb says ” You gave to gave the guts to be disliked”. Witch you have
Like I have experienced the Zaadz.community, I suggest not to be to fearful…

Thanks Nalukatak, your post there about the Bible was a good response to something send to me way up on the blog history, and you probably said it better than i could have.  You point out the manhandling of the Bible thru the centuries, for which there is historical support aplenty I think, the Dead Sea Scrolls also being quite compelling.
Anyway, I was asked, 'what is my interest?', i think.  My interest may be to understand, at least at this point what makes some people see the Bible as the inspired word, and others to see it as I (and apparently Nalukataq, and others) do.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.  Its my trade to try and understand all people as much as I can, and, as a person favoring eastern beliefs such as Buddhism, which accepts and welcomes skepticism in all its forms, i wonder how it is that so many believe that the Bible is this untarnished object (or that some guy built a boat and put two of every animal on it), when strong support to the contrary seeming to exist.  I don't know how many christians find themselves able (I expect Heemes has, on occasion) to let in some contradicting historical facts, that appear to challenge our faith.  Is some reconceptualization of faith in order, or am I missing the point?  Perhaps our faiths choose us sometimes, and thats all…
Maybe thats what got me talking to begin with.  It seems to be that place where an religious debate so often gets caught up, ending with an 'agreement to disagree', at best.  Dont' know if such a thing can develop beyond that, but this might be a better place than most to see what one can find out…

There's so much we don't know. And sometimes we have to be comfortable with what we don't know……..and what we don't know we don't know……

For all I know, once we die that could be it……..

Isn't it possible that there's a God AND there's no afterlife? Either way, there are certainly people we can emulate and Jesus is one of them. Is Jesus the son of God? I have no clue. Is it possible he was married, with children? Certainly. Does that matter to me? not much.

I'm not going to behave and treat people with love and kindness because I'm afraid I might go to hell. I'm going to do it because it feels right. I do see God in various acts of kindness and selflessness. Also in the “grand design” of things…….It's a long journey and I have no clue where it ends. But it sure is a fun ride!

thanks

jt

Heemes, how do you feel about this discussion thus far?  Is it meeting your expectations?

I can see you clearly as a Christian mystic, full of enthusiasm for the deep faith and connection with the divine that you experience in your life.  Mystics tend to use this energy to go inward, and perhaps missionaries use this energy to expand the flock outward, while teachers/administrators use this energy to teach and direct the flock.   While we may tend to view this energy as having a divine source, older traditions in Buddhism, for example, or native elders, see this energy as out of balance and not tempered with wisdom and long range vision, easily harnessed by one faction or another for the purpose of perpetuating their hierarchy, rather than the true teachings of beneficence and joy, which come from a deeper place of calm and no-action, finding the divine more in the solitude and compassion of St. Francis and less in the ferocity of Joan of Arc or the intricate orthodox beliefs of the current Pope. 

I can see your being a Christian man as stemming from your faith and personal acceptance of Jesus.  From what does your being Catholic stem?

Blessings,

Earon

If I may point something out, JT, why would you want to emulate Jesus if he wasn't who he said he was? He said he was the son of God, and the only way to eternal life. Look it up. John 8:54 and John  14:6 are two of the specific verses where he says it, but I'd recommend reading all of chapters 8 and 14. Really, when looking at Jesus there are only three ways to do it. Either he was a liar (in which case everything he said and did would be invalid, and you wouldn't want to emulate him anyway, who wants to look up to a liar?), or he was crazy (again, everything invalidated, you don't want to emulate a nut job), …. or he was telling the truth. Being the son of God, and the only way to God; those were his words.

Heemes, many thanks for sharing more about your own path.  What an amazing foundation upon which to build a wonderful, inspiring life. 

My own background is Jewish.  My parents were more ethnically connected than religiously or spiritually, although my late mother had some seeds of interspirituality and particularly enjoyed Christmas.  But I received the mystical connection through my grandmother and my religious education.  It was difficult growing up Jewish in the 1950's, after the horror and decimation of the holocaust and amid the antisemitism in the US.  Jews were especially disrespected after the holocaust - seen as weak - punished by god - and “losers.”  And, we seemed disconnected from our own history - as recent immigrants separated from a culture that was historically threatened and without a home.

I was around 5 or 6 years old when I was first shoved to the ground and told that I was a “kike” and something to do with “shit”.  I had no idea what either word meant, and my parents apparently didn't have the heart to explain it to me.  That wasn't the only time I was hit or shoved because I was a “Christ-Killer” or “denied Jesus” or otherwise didn't do what I needed to be “saved.”  There were jokes circulating about putting Jewish babies in “the ovens” etc.

But, after the Six Day War in 1967, things began to change.  My Catholic and Protestant neighbors became more tolerant and their teachers apparently made greater effort to dissuade the kids from disrespecting Jewish people.  Ironic, indeed, that the meek should be despised and that turning the other cheek would be equated with weakness and inferiority.  But what else does a tiny minority do?  Fighting back is most dangerous, although living in the cities provided a sense of safety in numbers.

Another factor was probably the extension of “antisemitism” to include rampant prejudice against Arab people.  In defeating Arab armies, Christians may have felt a new sense of partnership with Jewish people.  This must, then, make it terrible to grow up Muslim in America.  I feel that pain strongly.  How confusing for children to be despised for just being themselves, for being their parents' children, for having a different faith.  So, what I can do is treat people with respect and kindness, be a customer of Arab-American businesses and treat people with kindness, a good smile of friendship, offer a kind word, hold a door open, etc.

Over the years, I have maintained my spiritual connection with Judaism, moving more into Kabbalah, and adding studies of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Native spirituality, Interspirituality, the Himalayan Tradition, the Dao, etc., etc.  A solid foundation supports grand, diverse structures, as we build lives of compassion and partnership. 

Today is a solemn holiday for me, but I celebrate in my own way.  My heart tells me to wish you and everyone a happy, healthy new year filled with sweetness, compassion and kindness.

Peace and Joy,

Earon

I have to agree with Heather when comes to a topic such as religeon only your opinion is the most valuable. I have different perefrences but I do not force nor judge other for there decision in faith. You are truly a brave soul for stateing your stand on this topic, stay true to yourself and your path will remain clear. :)

Well said Heemes, my hat tips to you good sir.

I would agree that if we are certain of something and we listen for their truth, they may likely hear it at some point.   That might add a bit of lunacy to all our beliefs from one perspective.  Useful lunacy though, huh?

Earon, thats quite a fascinating history.  Scary history we make isn't it?  We seem to make anyone our enemy when it suits us.  From my chair here it seems impossible for things like the holocaust to happen again, like we've learned, but of course we haven't, and people are living in hellish situations even now.  Hopefully some of us learn though.  At the moment, I've found as one of my teachers for the next however-many-years as Viktor Frankl (and others like him), as my psychology studies continue.  Truly inspiring, the ideas produced out of something so awful…

I think it was Santayana who said “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”  In a way, this is particularly true for those of us who at zaadz, those of us seeking change.  Unless we understand what humans (INCLUDING OURSELVES) are capable of, it is rather easy to fall into zealotry when we feel desperate for the change we seek.

History teaches us that of which humans are capable, that there are limitations on the path to the limitless; particularly that power and wealth inherently tend to distort, tempt and corrupt us.  History teaches us that zealotry is a negation of faith - not an extreme example of it.  Zealots have lost their faith, and devolved into their inner rage, and are willing to use any means, power and brutal force to attempt to regain it, or to convince themselves and others that they have faith and that god is on their side.  At that point, faith is no longer the mystical experience of knowing god - but the fanatical adherence to a legalistic notion of truth - adherence to rules and edicts that were never intended to be more than guideposts and principles.  When we feel god's love, we do not need to control other people.  When we seek to control others, it is because we no longer have faith in creation, in god.

Each of us has a history.  Each of us had parents or guardians who lived through their own traumas, their own struggles, their own joys.  Often, their own flaws had much to do with the flaws of their parents, and/or the turmoil of historical events.  My grandparents were immigrants, much like many of the immigrants in America today.  My parents were children during the great depression.  My father was a soldier in WWII.  And many of my ancestors died in concentration camps before I was born.  Each of us has a history.  We must not be stuck in our history, but neither should we be ignorant of it - because it is part of the road map that shows us how we arrived at our present location.

Today, the United Nations estimates that there are more slaves in the world than at the height of the African slave trade and that organized crime gets more money than all of the military budgets of the world combined.  Are these mere trivia questions?  Why don't we already know this?  How can we promote change when we don't even know where we are?

Peace,

Earon

Heather…….

I thought Jesus was pretty cool. I have a funny feeling he spent some time with the Budhists…I emulate people I have respect for. I can put the God part of Jesus aside and still emulate him. Tough task though, that's for sure! Plus, he was kind of a hippie.

Do YOU, Heather, believe that good people who don't believe Jesus is the son og God are destined for hell?

John,

I believe the Bible. What have you found the Bible to say concerning hell and  believing that Jesus is the son of God?

 Heather said: Really, when looking at Jesus there are only three ways to do it. Either he was a liar (in which case everything he said and did would be invalid, and you wouldn't want to emulate him anyway, who wants to look up to a liar?), or he was crazy (again, everything invalidated, you don't want to emulate a nut job), …. or he was telling the truth. Being the son of God, and the only way to God; those were his words.

Heather and all, there is a fourth possibility to consider.
 
The historical documents that “reveal” Jesus to us, may have been changed and not fully convey who he really was and what he really said. It is a painful thing to consider, and the Catholic church addresses this one way, and the Protestant churches another, with all sorts of conundrums in the middle. The best way to get to know Jesus is to ask him to reveal himself to you. If you asked someone who loved you very very much to come and spend time with you and help you get more acquainted here on the earth, could someone as heavenly as Jesus refuse a request like that? One can argue all day about religious right/wrong dogmas and doctrines, but to get the clearest answer, I suggest that you go to the source.

Heather, would you like to go over some verses in the bible that are way way out there? There's some real perverted stuff in there for instance. “Believing the bible” could start flirting with fundamentalism and that can be dangerous. I'd say the bible was written by man. God, and man putting pen to paper about God are probably pretty far off.

When I ask people if they think that for instance, Hindus are destined to burn in hell, some christian semi-fundamentalists will try to say “hey, it's not ME! Look at what the BIBLE says! It says it right HERE!”….People preaching on the street have some of those pages pre-tagged so they can even yell it out.

To me, that's a bit of a cop out because then you can say “Well, it's not that I WISH these people would go to hell, it's just that that's what the BOOK says!”

Very very rarely will I get someone to look me in the eye and say “Yes, John. I believe in my heart that good people, people of other faiths, people who live kind loving lives, but who DON'T for one reason or another believe that Jesus is God……yes John, *I* believe they are going to burn in hell for all eternity.”

Usually, those people are wild-eyed fundamentalists.

Frank Zappa had some things to say about that:

(and I apologize if it takes up too much room. Actually, Zappa should have his own room…)

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same…
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You cant run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years…)

You cant run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades…
With whips n chains
n hand grenades…
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy…
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time…cant use theirs… it dont work
…its all lies…gotta use mine…)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night…
Every day…
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious…
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So…
If were dumb…
Then God is dumb…
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)

I agree with lightenup too………”look at the bible..”

WHAT bible?

The one chosen for us? The one filtered and edited by Kings over time?

The ones we find in the Dead Sea?

New ones we haven't found yet?

Oh this one implies that Jesus was married………let's just say we put that one over here where no one can read it………..

Let me tell you of something I observed quietly to myself the other day.  I was listening to Fresh Air and they were doing a retrospective on some Evangelical Christian guy (James Kennedy, known for “Reclaiming America For Christ”) who had just died.  He was very sharp, knew his stuff and made some very good points.  But with respect to his insistence that Christians be heard and allowed to participate in public policy, government and politics, I had to ask myself, How do you respect a viewpoint or ideology that IN ITSELF claims to be the ONLY one?  I don't think anyone could argue against any viewpoint or belief having a right to participate in the larger marketplace of ideas, but how do you do that when you know that the very substance of a particular belief is that there are no others which are valid?

Heemes your questions seem more philosophical than practical but I will attempt to understand your questions and answer them. It does seem a bit like answering a question with a question (I get that a lot with this subject) but let's see if we can make some progress.

It did seem as if you answered my “non-believers going to hell” question with a firm “no” but I was hoping Heather would do the same….

If I read you right you're asking me if I believe that this is an important question upon which believers will be judged………to that I answer “no, I don't”. I believe that people will be judged according to the life they live, what the do for others, what the give back, etc. What is important however is that I see many christians (really the born again/evangelical types) as attempting to establish fundamentalist christianity on American society in two ways. One way is to declare that Jesus is the ONLY way, that anyone who does not believe Jesus is God is destined to burn in hell. I find this arrogant and dangerous. Of course, I would never stop anyone from believing what they believe. However, I also reserve the right to call it arrogant and pushy. I also find it a little devious becuase it usually takes me a very long time to get one to say straight up “Yes, I believe in my heart that if you don't think Jesus is God you WILL go to hell.” Even those who EVENTUALLY finally admit it do so with a high degree of discomfort and embarrassment. If “taking Jesus AS God” is THE KEY to your beliefs, one would think you would stand tall and PROUD of announcing that billions of otherwise good people are destined to burn in hell.

The second problem comes after this admission is out on the table………my next question is “ok, so now what do you want to DO about this and what ROLE DOES GOVERNMENT have in seeing this end?”

The ultra far right born again/moral majority/evangelical fundamentalist christian does not tend to stop there. Tamer yes, but not much unlike OTHER fundamentalist forms of religioin, the “next step” so to speak is the desire to use our LAW, our GOVERNMENT to help ESTABLISH these views…….sew them slowly into our law through legislation.

These people don't tend to say “This is a christian nation” and go home and rest. It's that very sneaky “next step” of sewing into our law where I then put my hand up and say “no, you can't do that. Our constitution and bill of rights prohibits this.”

Muslim fundamentalists will say straight out “Allah or you die. Allah or we force Allah upon you. Allah or we can kill you. Allah IS government, government IS Allah.”

And yes, some of them will commit horrific acts of violence and martyrdom to acheive their end.

With CHRISTIAN fundamentalists (let's put guys like David Koresh aside for a moment), it's much sneakier. It's not as overt. It's a slow drip……..

BOTH are dangerous. I will put my hand up any time I see religious fundamentalists try to worm their way into my government, my laws, my body, my freedoms, my liberties that I hold dear. This is untouchable ground to me. You want to stand on a street corner and pound the bible and tell me I'm going to hell, that's fine with me!!! But when you start going to the “next step” to get government to hold hands with you to acheive your goals, I will strongly fight to stop it…..

I'm sorry you also asked me “what is my sense of the eternal soul”. Well, I don't know that there is one. I don't know that there isn't one either. For all I know, there very well may be a God AND no afterlife. Sure, that might be a bit depressing but I'm not going to invent something to make me feel better about my death. For all I know, there's a God AND we've all chosen the “wrong” religion. I have no idea. My sense of God is in the goodness and kind acts and selflessness that I see all around me. My sense of God pops up when I see people attempt to reduce the suffering of others.

But even if you say I'm flirting with agnosticism, I don't find agnostics trying to worm their way into my government.

I don't want to dominate this conversation……..by the way, how cool is this site where we can have a mature, quality discussion without anger and rhetoric. I've been in plenty of chat rooms that fail due to bad feelings and excessive arguing…..

Imagine if you die and face God and he/she/it breaks the bad news to you that you are unfortunately going to hell. When you ask why, stunned because you “followed the book”, God says “But you excluded in your heart many of my children because you were fooled by a book of man.”

Now what?

So is it possible that this issue can cut both ways? I suppose it can!

Sooooo Heemes, my good man….
Have all roads led back home?
;-)

I am inclined to offer my thoughts on this, as a brother to us all heemes has expressed his truth with courage and clarity.
Did I once read somewhere that Jesus said we would be forgiven for blaspheming against the Father but not against the son, or in a parable was he saying, by judging another we only judge ourselves.
That which we see as opposing or that which gives rise to our inner discord carries within it a message for us.
If we are the all the great children of creation and divine expressions of God then we each take from the teachings of Jesus that which resonates within our hearts. Jesus as I know demonstrated goodness, compassion, love, wisdom and some awesome healing.

In being that from which we came the act of sharing, listening and honoring is a good opportunity for growth. The act of expression in honesty is a great thing.
I reflect on the words which indeed resonate when Jesus said  ' In my Father's house there are many mansions'
Maybe a hint at we are all on the path……together!

Much love.

;-) I know this, Heemes…I've found that out myself long ago ;-)
And I say the same thing…if we were all perfectly loving with each other all the time, ahhh what a world! I have one more thing to say….

I would rather live my life as if there were a God, die and find out there isn't one…
Than living my life as if there were no God, die and find out there IS one.
;-)

I see nothing weak in having a strong faith.

Love,

Djuro

” John, what is the role of love in your life? You may be living a life of fear, constantly on the look as a watchdog, guarding values that are very American in nature.”

I'm afraid I can't answer that question……

“I would rather live my life as if there were a God, die and find out there isn't one…
Than living my life as if there were no God, die and find out there IS one.”

what is that, a HEDGE???? God is now a hedging tool like buying gold???

I'm only kidding with you. That's why atheists behave……..just in case…..

What's a Hedge? ;-)

LOL…I just read that quote and wanted to use it somewhere…I thought it was pretty cool ;-)

This is why I recommend everyone choose Rastafarianism…..

just in case…….

;)

Very interesting stuff!
Earon's a cool guy, I like ;-)
Heemes, I love that bumper sticker! LOL ;-)

And wow…good link to Pascal's Wager (learned a little something, LOL)
Basically Heemes, I find that it was a necessary journey for you (and all of us)…to “leave and come back” as that really helps you to appreciate the finer points, to have contrast and a more rounded picture ;-)

Whatever you decide for yourself, I wish you Peace ;-)
At the end of our Journeys…I'll see you back Home…my room is right down the hall from yours, in our Father's House ;-)

am I a ” provocateur -or- seeker of truth”?……

hmmm…..combine the two and I guess I could be considered a bit of a prankster.

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, with kindness and good humor.

I think that Pascal's Wager, oversimplifies the choices and ignores the collective impacts of such choices.  To believe in any particular religious dogma may be relatively harmess for an individual.  However, for most of a nation to believe the same dogma can be catastrophic if that dogma is in direct conflict with other religious dogmas.  This is generally the case where the dogma teaches that it is the only true way to God and that only these believers will go to heaven.  Holy wars ensue. 

Thus, Pascal's choice was not truly whether to believe in God, but whether to believe in a particular human interpretation of God to the exclusion of all others.  Even to accept “Christianity” was not really safe throughout history when various brands of Christianity were waging wars against each other.  This is what prompted the spread of Deism among America's founders, which nominally adopts Pascal's Wager without any religious dogma.

If we choose to live, experientially, in accord with kindness, compassion and the collective widsom from a diverse array of religious teachings and faiths, we actually increase our chances of pleasing God (If it exists).  Hedging our bets thus leads us to studying and assembling the core beliefs common to all religious traditions (e.g., The Golden Rule) - rather than to simply adhering to one given interpretation.  Under this reasoning, the riskiest options are to believe in a religious interpretation that turns out to have displeased God (e.g., killing people in God's name, going to war on false pretext) - or to abandon kindness and wisdom altogether.

Frankly, I see little chance that Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Buddha and (eventually) the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh are burning in hell, along with interspiritual students and “Ethical Humanists.”  But if they are, I'd be honored to join them.  That's my wager and I feel comfortable accepting it.

Yes indeed, and if from the source of all God or Good things comes such teachings, wisdom and understanding, then apart from hedging bets we have a mind open to everything, we may find that resistance, judgement and closed focus may restrict.
Could it be that we learn much from the teachings, ideas and guidance of other's, without fear or doubt.

Paul, sorry for the long delay in responding to your question.  OMG!

I believe that spiritual truths are found in paradox, where we seek to learn from them rather than to judge, but there are times when we do need to make judgments and protect our interests, hopefully in ways that appear wise even after several generations.  From where I sit at this point, it appears that those who tolerated pedophile priests in the Church may have inadvertently set into motion a regressive period that will fuel a movement that may divide the Church in America, but that ultimately may be a blessing to the Church as well as the world in general.  Who knows?

Generally, I see the “liars” as those who manipulate truths for their personal benefit, financially or ego.  (Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.)   I can see the other side of the moneychangers in the temple, who may simply have been providing necessary services for people making pilgrimmage.  As for Abraham sacrificing Isaac, I can only see that on a metaphorical level, which is always an important aspect of Judaic scholarship.

[Paul — Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do” (John 14:12) and “You will know them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:16). ]

Those are wonderful, relevant quotes.  Jesus steps back from the present and makes us partners in healing the world, and directing us towards the fruits of our actions, which may take generations to become apparent.

Peace,

Earon