What I want to Say to John/Jon

heemes,
I wish to acknowledge that I have read this post and honor your spirit for writing it! Thank you and bless you! I will comment more tomorrow when I have time to inhale the essence that you have written here… One question or thought does arrive with your sentence “please consider my invitation to look at a broader and deeper consciousness-and-celebrate sacred sexuality responsibly.” Now I find that statement juicy! I will consider your invitation for a broader and deeper consciousness celebration of sacred sexuality very seriously! For I would love to have such a conversation with all men and women. and I have while living at Easton Mountain Retreat center where sexuality played a big role, especially sacred sexuality. So my question is this, what is Sacred sexuality and how do we discuss it responsibly with consciousness and reverence that sexuality desires to be expressed? Thank you again! 

hi there!!!  if you go read my poem the peach
i would like to know how you take it
when i wrote it
i was truly and simply describing a peach orchard
and how i felt being in it and smelling it and so on
someone else's mind with all of its scars
and someone else's mind with all of its joys spoke to me if its inherent sexuality
juice to me is energy
sexual energy while for some is a lower frequency is still just that
energy
all will stay parted if we must decide for each other how each feels it, moves it, works with it

honestly, i didn't take the juice thing sexually at all

i just read most of the last witchfinder and do you know in there, the one looking and searching for the 'demon witch' with all of his rules and ways of identification made him that which he sought to destroy–seems odd that he was so afraid of it in the first place

degas expressed his juice with his women, was that sexual too?
interesting for you to share how you feel
ty i appreciate it

I take your point Paul. I am possibly hyper-conscious about what I post online, simply because I am a public figure and I'm aware that people in many places take what I write & teach quite seriously and that I am a role model to many 'groups' of persons. I take my responsibility seriously; maybe another reason is that I am an Ambassador. It means something to me, enough to be cautious.

Sexuality, especilaly male sexuality, got dragged downwards some time back and it's due an uphill climb, I agree. It's wallowing down there with male sensitivity and connection and respect for self and others. I CAN'T wait to see a topic like this make the front page on GAIA.

And I've noticed that it's still the juicy ones with cussing etc. that make the front page most often. I grumbled when jung-girl's blog honouring women was at 230 posts and 25 comments or something and WASN'T on the hottest blog list anywhere for days. It only made it on when somebody wrote and - cussing - disputed with her view. I've got to admit, I didn't like the look of that. What was that implying? What message is GAIA sending?

And I feel fine to know that the 'doors are open to all', but not when I know that people are wandering our way to seek alternatives… especially kids. That is scary… And we're being encouraged to bring other people over too… hmmm

Are we united in purpose after all?

One last thing. It would seem that many people on GAIA set their comments to be seen only in the community [of 'only' 200k odd people], which is a personal choice of course. How open does that make us look to the world?

Just my thoughts.

Peace and love to you, sherri

Cross-posted from my JUICY BLOG

More later - after I get some juicy sleep.  It's not about sex, or cursing or any of the things that you see, but resistances that you hold inside.

What does one's sexual orientation have to do with the juiciness of life or more to the point, a conversation taking a turn in a direction which you feel uncomfortable?  It is always interesting to me how perception works.  Please “enlighten” me.

Hi Paul and thanx for both apologising and taking time to express your point of view…I appreciate it…..

I thought about your comments at some length…..I not so much pepper as paprika my blogs with profanity…and out of all the comments and personal missives I have received, you are the first person to challenge me in this way….I have been grateful for the opportunity to examine my mode of expression in this respect….

The Buddha never cautionned against profanity but he did warn against use of harsh speech…..I have heard four-letter profane words used less harshly than ethnocentric value-judgements referring to womanhood, skincolour and sexual orientation…and vice-versa…and there is often a good deal of anger, frustration and harsh indignation behind most humour….these are just some of the factors which  render each context of profanity unique…and factorising them into the harsh and nonharsh is a task which requires a lot of upaya, skilful means….

I do not recall ever having used a swear-word against another tribe-member here on Gaia either privately or en blog/pod…..I have attenuated the harshness and anger in my personality through a variety of means and seldom feel aggressive…..I do, however, experience an intense passion resultant of a partially-awakened kundalini….and I experience a good deal of vehemence fuelling this passion….anger and desire are both rooted in the nature of testosterone; make love to it or kill it…..so on this side of the street, Paul, I am still pondering over whether I am being angry or passionate, and, indeed, whether it is possible to separate the two…..

Regarding your side of the street, Paul, I appreciate your call for resacrelising sexuality here on site….I perceive that there is more freeform-jazz partying than debating according to the classical score in places such as Nicole's very fine site, or the Integral Pod…but jazz and Mozart are both Music….I would not seek to distinguish between the Sacred and the Profane where sex is concerned….I love the work of David Deida in this respect…..

I find that all life is sexual in nature and agree with Marcuse that we have localised it within the act of intercourse so as to deaden ourselves sufficiently elsewhere as to fuel a socioeconomic mainstream with alienated labour…..if you read my post again, you will find one sentence referring explicitly to desire which stressed the fearlessness and authenticity of a longheld eyegaze…which is about contact and not mutual onanism…..and after it comes a whole spiel of images which are passionately described but nonsexual in nature if sex is narowly defined….I am in touch with my depths and heights sufficiently to experience the world in the manner in which I verbally express myself…profanity in this context can be variously liberating, amusing, stimulating, descriptive, ironic and provocative….

I'm  thinking aloud in this post and  it's not a meted-out argument but it's not meant to be….at the moment,  I am thinking through  whether I'm going to modify my language in future…and until i draw conclusions, i will refrain from swearing onsite.

Warmly, Jon 

It's pretty wonderful to see two of my favourite men take their discussion / dispute to a higher place and one that incorporates reflection while not neglecting the beauty of them-selves and their sexuality. [Yes, both of you identified it and I love you for it!] Please continue to lead by example. It brings us hope.

And I wanna hear more about sacred MALE sexuality… YEH! Whenever you are ready… :D

Thanks again. Much love. sherri

Since when is juice all about sexuality?  And how does one expressing that aspect of juice mean that you have no looked into the depth of consciousness and have the ability to dive deeper into all that is?  Perhaps digging deeper into ones reaction to such things can bring about a recognition of shadow, projection or all kinds of things.  Ive found that my reactions to things ALWAYS has a higher message to me of where I need to dig deeper…perhaps this was no different. 
Very few of the blog posts ever mentioned sex…mine didnt…I spoke of juice…it was up to the reader to decide what that invoked in them.  Most people who posted there never referenced sex.  Elisas poem had me virtually salivating over peaches..and my post had a lot more to do with things well beyond sex…
Personally I think Johns blogs always evoke a lot of deep thought, reaction and room for self interspection..and Jon's comments always do the same.  Its always interesting to see whats up on Gaia and where we have room for more opening and conscious growth whether we realize it or not.  I know Ive still got some growing to do so Ill not be poking my finger into anyones chest saying “CHANGE!”
Blessings always.

Paul, my new friend, I am intrigued by the thoughtfulness you have invoked in your post here, and I have learned a lot II’ve never thought about. I hadn’t realized that Gaia was accepting children as members. I have lots of thoughts and feeling about that stirring, but I won’t go into them here. That’s for another time, and a vital discussion it will be if someone involved wants to blog it and invite me to flollow the conversation.

I could speak to every line of your post directly, and in time perhaps I shall, because there is medicine here.

What I will do now, (because it is time for me to leave for my Saturday morning Orgasmic Shopping) is to say, NONONO I will not temper my expression anytime anywhere so that my mother or her best friend will not be offended (you know not what you ask of me Dear Paul) . I have spent my life healing my way out of that little box.
As I say on my profile: Denial of our orgasmic nature is abuse!

I’ll refer you to my blog for other thoughts expressed here recently: the pith is here, the juice you can find dripping at my blogs:

Our comfort zone is killing us!
and
my most recent on the liberation of boundaries, which is rather discreetly expressed.

A clue about me, I don’t let it all hang out. My juiciest moments of the past 48 hours will not be discussed because of their sacredness, and they did not involve sex by the way.

OH, and I can’t let this one pass!!!!
you write:
If Gaia is to reach its potential, this subject of juicy sexual play absolutely fits inside a container of life, yet it is not the container itself!

GGRRRRRR!!!!! I feel so impassioned about the ERROR of this statement that I might cuss all over your blog, and I don’t want to disrespect you!

Sit with Jon a while. He lives, blogs, and models the truth about this.

And I have to stop now. Let’s mete it out in small mouthfuls so we can hear each other!

AHO

Paul, thanks for starting a conversation and allowing people to respond to your broader statement.

In response to the issues of society's problem with homosexuality and gay-ness in particular, I would challenge you to acknowledge your own issues with it. It's very easy to put it off on society; not so easy to own it in ourselves. As Gaian's I think we owe it to ourselves to walk the talk of acceptance to the degree we're able, and to share our challenges openly if we're going to be in the debate.

Regarding the children, or young people, witnessing these comments~ I have always felt strongly that openness around sexuality is what prevents shame from setting in and warping people's experiences. When my husband and I decided to have a non-monogomous relationship, I was absolutely committed to it not being a deep dark secret. Does that mean it was an orgy in our living room? No! But it meant being natural and shame-free with my actions. It meant answering questions and modeling that sexuality & relationships have many faces, and that it's a personal choice, not a society choice. There was nothing I saw on the many comments of John's blog that I wouldn't have wanted my kids to see.

And I have to agree with Carla that the very container of the the Universe is Sexual! We live in a world of continuously repeating marriages of masculine and feminine energies, either overtly or subtly. And it is the energy that matters- not the shape of it. Could be genitilia or peaches or thunderstorms. There is such juice to me in this understanding.

I love the idea of deeper conversations about Male Sacred Sexuality. Reclaiming of Goddess mythologoy and re-sacrelizing the Femine has led the way for you Brothers. Leap into the juice and discover your sacredness!

Right now, I'm sensing some feelings of judgement within myself toward you, that you didn't just post this “response” on Satya's blog.  To me, it smacks of “my camp, your camp” and promotes division, even insomuch as it is an apology.  I'll take a close look at myself for that critical thought, and look for the ways in my own life that I am doing just that same kind of thing… as that's how I believe the Universe works.

When I first clicked into Satya-Seer's (John's) Juicy blog and read Jon's post, my head did kind of a little jerk-back thing, my eyes grew large and blinked a few times, my mouth opened into an “OMG!” smile, and it took me a few moments to process it.  Within those moments, I admired and embraced Jon's courage, passion and openness. His innocent joie de vivre.  I read on to the next entry with a positive feeling in my heart.

Conversely, while reading your (also heartfelt and honest, I know) message above about not knowing what to say to nieces and nephews who ask whether John is your friend, my heart and stomach sank into a sick kind of feeling… I became very, very sad for you. 

It is crucial that our children see us and hear us accepting and loving everyone - across political, racial, religious and sexual orientation lines.  I say “lines” knowing full well that “lines” don't even exist.  I am ridiculously proud to call Satya-Seer my friend, and have purposefully pointed out his profile to my son, as I have with several others in the community to whom I feel expecially close.  His “gayness” didn't even come up, but if it had, I'd have been happy for one more opportunity to model the total comfort with diversity which I definitely aspire to pass on to the children in my life.

Should I be in the position of “explaining” Jon's post to John's blog to my children, I would comment without hesitation.  “The Talk” in my house doesn't simply cover what-goes-where and how babies result.  It's also important to tell curious young people about sex as it relates to passionate, deep sharing… the trust that is put on the table, the powerful energy that is exchanged, mingling your spirit with that of another.  For me, this is the only way to illustrate to them the sanctity of sex, and the solid reasons for not entering into sex lightly, with someone you're not really emotionally connected with… which is also done and is even technically okay with a condom, but tends to bring about an “empty” feeling, afterwards, that can compound with repetition.  Fun is fine if done safely, but it's the cherry on the sundae - and you're missing out bigtime by not experiencing the whole dessert.

What's tough about that?  It's physical intimacy, and the more healthy we are in our attitudes toward it, the fewer hang-ups our children will have.  It's not like we're putting a donkey show DVD on, at dinner… but you know… even if my kids stumbled upon something like that on the internet, I'd still welcome the opportunity to discuss it with them.  The upshot of our discussion would be respecting those who are different, and the power of sexual merging to celebrate and solidify a bond, or to leave one feeling empty, drained, sad, used, sore, diseased, etc.

Oh - and during the course of this missive I did figure out the “my camp, your camp” three fingers pointing straight back at me thing.  I'm doing it at work. 

Upshot: There's growth opportunity here for anyone who feels critical, disturbed or uncomfortable about any of this, and what we say about others says nothing about them, and everything about us.  Namaste, and blessings as you traverse your path. 

Forgive me for adding a second post but I have been thinking about this ever since writing my other post…All my life I have lived my life worrying about what other people think…my mom's best friend, my mom, my dad, my friends, the universe! and tempering my speech, actions,  & life accordingly.    And you know what…Im really tired of that!!!  If I continue to live my life worrying about what other people think…and trying to please everyone..then I just as well dig a hole and crawl into it, because there will always be someone who isnt happy about what I do or say.  So Paul, Im sorry, but I think that is the worst advice in the world.  And I hope that you truly dont live your life that way…because if you do you must not have much of a life, at least your life couldnt be your own.   I suspect (I dont know you at all) that you're an intelligent person who has a lot to offer…so just be you…and Ill just be me and invite everyone else to do the same.  Blessings once more.

Hi folks….Paul.

I've given some thought to the issue of some of my sexualised subject matter and my thinking runs this way;

Increased energy levels engender testosterone which canb expressed as passion or violence….have sex with it or run away from it or kill it….

Excitable circumstances…the invitation tosexual foreplay or the aggressively thrown glove….incite these increaed energy levels….

We blokes often have a hard time differentiating between aggression and passion since they share the same physiology and, referenced upwards into the limbic brain, are not emotionally differentiable…..

Over 25 years of essentially tantrick selfwork, I have come to see the kosmos as one whole act of sexual sustainance…..actually, it is what it is, a nondual union of form and consciousness and this does have a sexual feel to it probably since sex is the emblematic act symbolising What It's All About……

In short, living turns me on and any sexual bias in my blogging here on site does tend to reflect this…..

If I get you right, Paul, your point is not about prudery as such because I peg you as being to intelligent (as opposed to merely smart) to be confined by that trip…your point to me sems to be that an exhubently sexual theme may not accurately portray the essential sacredness of the kosmic/sexual act….this is a more accurate rendition of the notion of debasement when that word isn't being used as prudery.

And to some extent, I agree with you.

To the extent that desire and aggresssion occlude the clarity of our writings on the subject, we have no ability to reflect….those emotions become the lens through which we experience the world….to the extent that we can bear witness to our emotions, there will be greater clarity and the opportunity to inform, uplift and facilitate our readership will be maximised in congruence with the Bodhisattva Vow.

Therefore, I think that it is the process of writing on sex which lends the flavour rather thn the content…in future I would want to carry out a check as to whether I am being swamped by my emotions as I write…which would result in a narcissistic, self-gratifying motivation doing nobody any “good”……or whether I have enough altitude to celebrate kosmos by taking the needs and wellbeing of others others into account….

My juicy blog post was perilously close to emotional overwhlm and began quite aggressively…and if I had my time again, I would seek to soften it……thre are plenty of ways I know of to ease folks out of their comfort zone and projecting aggression on my part is not one of them because of what I deny in myself in that moment…

So thanx for easing me out of my own comfort zone, Paul….I apologise to you for causing offense and  in future will be more mindful of my emotional state when blogging.

Tomorrow I am going to start a Male Sexuality discussion….all welcome…I am fond of the likes of David Deida in his respect and will rally a few of my pals who dig that sort of stuff to contribute…..

Warmly and in gratitude, Jon x

Yum. :)

I've read through John's juicy post, and the comments that followed, and then traipsed over to this one, shaking my head with a wry grin of fondness and appreciation for how fabulously unafraid and rich this group is.

I came over in part because Ladybear had asked me to come weigh in; she's already mentioned (above) that there were some younger souls on the site (teenagers, say), that this conversation is now front-and-center on the community page, and they were concerned over the (inadvertent or unconscious) aggressiveness and implied sexual violence in some of the comments. (Yes, I'm lookin' at you, Jon. I understand and appreciate that you “see the kosmos as one whole act of sexual sustenance,” and the ways in which you might be excited about performing this with a willing partner, but others may not, and I wouldn't necessarily want to explain that to a small boy who'd been groped by a older neighbor or a woman who'd been assaulted by a stranger.)

So I wanted to add a little perspective, or at least encourage stepping into some other shoes.

First of all, from a technical and legal perspective, this community is not intended for those under 16, and we don't allow children under the age of 13 to be members unless their parents or guardians oversee their profile. (Hell, I like knowing that we can have more mature conversations.) We try to track this and try to make sure that all minors have parental permission to be on the site, but there is only so much we can do upon sign up, and even so, there are still younger readers. Even if we explicitly prevented anyone under the age of 18 from joining, this site could still be found and read by young (and, I imagine, very wide!) eyes.

I don't personally see anything offensive about discussions of sexuality. However, I do try to be mindful of those who've been victims of this (usually beautiful) incredible powerful form of self-expression. I do have a need and a desire to be joyful and enthusiastic about my own sexuality, and to play with and discuss this topic with others, but I'm not so helpless that I'm controlled by this need, and not so callous as to think my need for self-expression overshadows either the needs of others to feel respected and safe, or that it should trump my own heartfelt desire for others to feel cared for and respected and appreciated.

In short, I have both a strong need for this community to continue to be a safe and reverent space, and a need for this to be a place where people can express themselves authentically and speak from their heart. To that end, there are tools on the site that allow for both to occur (for instance, it's possible to make Groups and posts private, so if you're worried about someone being unwittingly exposed to something you say that might bring up something deeply painful for them, or that might be difficult to include a minor in, you can set it so that only those on your friends list can see it; ditto if you'd like to create a conversation that won't be discovered on Google and potentially brought up in the future by either employers or family), and I'd like to think that all of us here are responsible and caring enough to be able to be judicious about using those features.

Okay. This comment could have been a blog post in and of itself. I hope it provided a little more food for thought, and a little perspective, and that I didn't sop up TOO much of the juice flowing around.

Warm gratitude from me, too,
Siona

(Oh. And PS. Jon and John and Paul? Thank you, gentlemen, for your role in this. I've loved the conversation so far. And to everyone else who hung in there after the first little shocked reaction to keep conversing and deepening the discussion… a deep bow. This place is amazing.)

Hi Paul,
   Just a note to let you know your first comments on (((John's))) blog did not go unnoticed by me.  You expressed your Point of View and exited politely.  I read your blog post here and you maintained your dignity.  I applaud you for that.

I am now 66 and grew up where kids and ladies did not swear.  Even men didn't swear in public.  Many kids got their mouths washed out with soap for even saying “damn” or “darn”.I wrote a blog piece about it just recently!  Call me Old Fashioned - whatever, I do not like Public Profanity, even from my beloved friends here and in real life.   Whatever I choose to say publicly, I always think
“would I be proud to have my mother or grandmother read this?  But that is my standard for myself, not anyone else.  Do as you  please.    Thanks for your contribution to this topic.   PS – I see you are a Cancer too.. ;>) 

Hi All ,

Wow, what great comments , now that being said , I have always been a firm believer at being open when it come to sexuality, as I have young children , and believe it is in the essence of how I speak about sex as not being something to be ashamed about .
Years ago I took my children with many other children to see this women , and she was very open , and honest about sex, I believe educating , also that our bodies are sacred , and we all have the power to say yes or no when it comes to our body.
So when it comes to young eyes , and ears , it is always best to have guidance from an adult when seeing or hearing about sex.
As for me I monitor my children's computer , and when I find things , that are not appropriate for them, I don't say they are wrong , I use this as a teach able moment.
Just another thing to add , there are ways for children , to get on any site , and see anything.Children are very smart , and we all have to be aware that we are role models for the future.
Just my two cents worth.
I try to see things at all angels.
What a great community.

Loriann
So ,  

Hi Siona,

I am not quite sure how I feel about your comment.  I have mixed emotions.  On the one hand I fell that for the most part (not completely though) you have made fair observations.  You were asked by another member to come review and weight in on this conversation which spans two different blogs. Were you asked in an official capacity pertaining to yor role at Gaia or were you asked by a friend as a friend?  Spliting hairs? Perhaps.  I ask because although I felt most of your comments were fair the fact that you chose one blog to weigh in on and not the other speaks out loud, whether it is intentional or not.  I think it would have been more fair to post the same comment on both blogs.  Now, as for the “younger souls” on the site, there are many young souls here at Gaia and the world at large that are over the legal age of 21 and plenty of old souls younger than 18. Yes, I know it is besides the point but I just htought I would throw that out there for a bit of humor. 

Hi Siona, folks…..

I would like to echo Mimi in that I see no “implied sexual violence” in my comment…what I do see is the possiblity of uninhibited passion moving over the dial into the red of aggression…

Also, if I thought that this site was visited by small boys molested or otherwise, i wouldn't post up most of what I do.

That said, I appreciate your appreciation Siona and have found todays reflections highly instructive.

Tomorrow i am going to blog on male sacred sexuality in a controlled manner and you are all warmly invited.

Regards, Jon x

Hi Ladybear,

No No No I did not think you had ratted anyone out.  I apologize for not realizing that my comment may have sounded like I did.  My question was more about within what capacity were some of Siona's views coming from. From a bigger picture I do think it is sad that a conversation inspired by fun now had to be reviewed for potential legal issues.  It is a statement on the world in which we live right now. 

Namaste,

Mimi

runs in with bucket and tosses juice on everyone to wash away the negativity and reinstate the discussion ….where all have been free to be just as they are
some seeking to be understood
some seeking understanding of others
some seeking understanding and clarity of self
NOW THAT IS SOME AWESOME JUICE!!!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Thanks Elisa! 

Can I have a towel now?  LOLOLOL…I am seriously late on getting out the door to Trader Joes's.  Yes! JUICE is on my grocery list!

Mimi: Well, I had mixed feelings about posting it, so that makes two of us. :) To be clear, Ladybear didn't ask me to 'review' anything; she was concerned about possible legal ramifications and was wondering what our responsibilities were. I picked Paul's blog primarily because it was the more recently posted and it felt as though the discussion had migrated over here, but you're right, it was arbitrary and I'll go ahead and add my post to John's as well. Thank you.

I don't want anyone to hold back thoughts on sexuality (and I hope I made that clear!). I'd just wanted to share that when I play in these waters I try to keep an eye on HOW I express myself. (Also, to clarify: “f*cking someone's brains out” sounded violent to me. Certainly, I think there's a difference between violence and aggression, and something can be done in a violent yet deep and loving way–even some forms of death–but I think it was that which awakened a little reciprocal emotion in me.)

You asked about in what capacity my comments were being made; I'll just say I struggle with this daily. :) Given that it's both impossible and irresponsible to ignore my professional / Director role, I'll just take ownership of that, and clarify that it was intended as a clarification about our policies with minors and children, and a reminder (from the admin / moderator side) as the Community values of awareness and compassion / sensitivity. (And, of course, the personal challenge I feel we all have when it comes to balancing our needs and rights to self-expression with our concern and care for others.) Let me know if I could be clearer, though. :)

Ladybear: A big thank you to both you and John.

Jon: Appreciation reflected right back. I'll look forward to tomorrow's entry. :)

elisa: I don't see any negativity here! But even so the juice bath can't hurt… thanks. ;)

You know, pretty soon this juice will spill over into yet another blog … oh, wait … it already is spilling into Elisa's Cult of Pee blog, and has leant a spark of life to Jon's forthcoming blog on Male Sacred Sexuality.  Really, I meant no harm to anyone and apologize for all my unkind words said here, especially Heemes.  What great energy going around here with all this.

Mimi - thank you about the comment of your abuse.  I ditto that.

I love all of this fluid exchange (AR!! no pun intended) and the winding path of discussion and enlightenment, here.  I feel compelled to add my .02 re: tempering expression in deference to those healing from abuses.

This sort of side-stepping is actually insulting to those in that sort of recovery.  It sends a message that they are weak and defenseless against “sex” and that they somehow need our protection from it.  I understand the knee-jerk fear and caution along those lines, and especially object to any purposeful “salt rubbing in wounds” kind of communication, but maintain that the MOST respectful thing that we can do for ourselves and others is to be loving, be healthy, and be real. 

The boisterous, passionate, “red zone” sex described by Jon seems as innocent and healthy as organic apple pie, to me.  I'd think that exposure to descriptions of how our “saucy bits” are utilized in healthy ways might even be enormously healing to those struggling with separating real sex from disrespectful, ugly violence.

Okay, no more soapbox for me.  Really.  No… really!

I guess it all depends on ones point of view as to what seems violent and what doesnt…what is violent to one may seem quiet erotic to another.  Some of us pray nightly to have our brains f#(*ed out ….Its all in your point of view.  Great discussions!  :-)

This sort of side-stepping is actually insulting to those in that sort of recovery.  It sends a message that they are weak and defenseless against “sex” and that they somehow need our protection from it.  I understand the knee-jerk fear and caution along those lines, and especially object to any purposeful “salt rubbing in wounds” kind of communication, but maintain that the MOST respectful thing that we can do for ourselves and others is to be loving, be healthy, and be real. 

MamaSue: Totally agree. And I think a few words of sincere acknowledgment and reflection, prior to the posting of any traditionally “taboo” topics or language, about exactly this, can do wonders. :)

WOW!

-we don't allow children under the age of 13 to be members unless their parents or guardians oversee their profile….

Wow Siona, that means there could be children UNDER THE AGE OF 13 here folks….wow

Down came my earlier comment.

I had NO idea….VERY interesting decision, in my opinion….very.


I think the kids would fare better with their own kids appropriate blogs and projects to help change the world…like a similar, related but separate site. There are still stages of child development to be considered, and emotional and sexual issues that we should be sensitive to in my opinion….we are a family afterall …yes?

I have talked to my son about issues of sexually his whole life…and in a quite “up front manner” ….so I am an old pediatric and labor and delivery nurse…it's all part of life… BUT…
Organic orange juice may be the way to go, if there are 10 year olds in here??

No denying the feel of this blog….and nothing wrong with it being here ….but kids …hello.

I personally think Gaia should show just how great they can be….and step up their involvement with children. Why not have a kids program that is separate to an appropriate age. It is going to be their world…who better to change it ???? :)

I think Gaia has a responsibility to be involved appropriately if they claim to be a site to change the future of the planet.

—and adults should be free to have their chats about adult topics without judgements or concerns about children seeing something inappropriate. I consider this space more sacred than the basic internet.


That's my 2SenseWorth


J

Siona: Totally agree. And I think a few words of sincere acknowledgment and reflection, prior to the posting of any traditionally “taboo” topics or language, about exactly this, can do wonders. :)

What???? a posted disclaimer/warning? or …

Taboo means Sacred.

Traditionally? whose tradition? Whose family?

I am already going to hell for being divorced, and I can''t go to hell cause I was born again when I was 13.  Whose handbasket is this anyway?

Can of worms, catch-22, damned if do, damned if don't.

I'll just wait for Jon's blog tomorrow, and go back to John and Elisa for juice.
This politeness is making me tired.

PS. Good Effort Siona. I know keeping an eye on Gaians is like herding cats.

 PPS:  and herding cats is a whole lot like chasin' pussy!

slippery,
even when they're not wet,
but sho' feels good
to catch some tail!

Hey ypouse loverly guys and gals,

Facilitating healing environments for abuse survivors as I do (I earn a crust as a psychotherapist) I ensure that a temenos, a sacred space is created in which all parties within feel safe enough to do the work…if the temenosic (?) boundary is broken, participants would re-contract back into their shame-based shapes.

This site is a temenos for me and I feel more guarded now that I know that children under the age of 16 may have an endorsable unsupervised access to this site.

I write as a post-pubescent for post-pubescents here…elsewhere it's a different story but this is where i play…and play is an exploration zone permeable to the outer life.

The idea that prepubescents could view my material causes me great concern because they are not yet cognitively equipped to grok the stuff I purvey.

So I am going to curtail my excesses in future without sacrificing my passions, if this is possible.

Respectfully, Jon x

I’m glad to see to see that this dialogue has led to something positive—-and I applaud John, Paul and especially Jon for expressing their respective views and feelings about the idea of “juiciness” as well as the controversy/fallout once this turned into a bit of a drama and things intensified. At a certain point (on John’s blog), I jumped in and explained my views re: juiciness/juicy living—-living a life full of passion-—in so many words, getting all the “juice” out of it you possibly can. I didn’t step into the controversy at all.

Now I’d like to…

The way I see it is this—it’s what you say, how you say it—and what you're hoping to accomplish by saying it. Simple as that. This applies to everyone, not just these three Gaians. Before you hit “send,” it might worth it to ask yourself—what is my intention? Do I hope to inform, teach, clarify, enlighten….or…to criticize, hurt, shame, shock, judge or crush someone? Once you have your answer, pause a moment and decide if it’s really what you want to do…and if you do, go for it…and then, accept the consequences later, if there are any.

In general, I’m happy to see the turn this has all taken. I think most people have put their issues aside and have begun to have a real dialogue. On the other hand, frankly, I’ve been bit disappointed to see the venomous nature of some of the comments. That just doesn’t seem necessary.

Also disappointing is that a friend of mine, new to Gaia (and a huge fan), wanted to get involved in this conversation, but chose not to. The reason: she senses that one with differing views may be ganged up on/attacked by others. This, I think, is what bothers me the most about what’s happened. Not her fear itself, but what she’s afraid of. Based on what I’ve seen here (and in a few other places on Gaia), I don’t think she’s crazy. I do hope, however, that she’s wrong.

Thanks, Little Big O ….for seeming to …make my point even more clear about how appropriate “adult Gaia” is…for children…. before their frontal cortex is developed.

I appreciate psychotherapist John's personal yet professional thoughts. The idea that prepubescents could view my material causes me great concern because they are not yet cognitively equipped to grok the stuff I purvey.



With respect also,

Janie

Morning Star ~ if you read every post it will become apparent to you that the venomous nature and the ganged upon/attacked by others feeling changes as the dialog continues.  You (and your friend) will find that as people keep talking and keep sharing the whole tone changes.  Apologies were even given.   That's the beauty of the whole thing IMHO.

I've been thinking about the subject of children being on this site for the last couple of days.  I'm an adult and yet have often found my head spinning from threads and posts here at Gaia.  Among a million other reasons, it's why I like it here, it makes me think.  It challenges my views, it opens my world.  But do I think a child could take it all in and make sense of it?  Absolutely not.  I can't even make sense of all of it.  My thirteen yr old is privy to some things here that I share with her but I wouldn't encourage her to become a member.  Most of the discussions are over her head and I feel she would become very confused about her own beliefs.  I share funny posts, pictures, or videos, and small amounts of spiritual blogs or discussions that I feel she can handle to further her self-exploration.  I also like to share kindness & healing blogs with her.  My 11 & 20 yr old sons?  They just think Gaia is weird.  The 13 & 20 yr old prefer MySpace.  The 13 yr old is monitored VERY closely on MySpace, both by me and her big brothers.  Anything remotely inappropriate gets back to me very quickly (i.e. Mandi's friend, “A” posts provocative pictures of herself, Mom, go look”  or Mandi's friend “B” has stuff about drinking on her profile page etc).  She has no privacy when it comes to the computer.  None. 

If kids are looking for provocative, Gaia surely isn't the first place they are going to look or a place that they would stay for that type of amusement.  I think the “Juicy” blog would bore most kids silly and they would shake their head and say “weird”.  That's it. 

As for profanity, has anyone walked the halls of an elementary or middle school lately?  Profanity is not shocking to our generation of children and unless you homeschool them and have no Internet or T.V. in your home, it's just there.  Who deemed “cuss” words bad anyway.  What makes that certain combination of vowels & consonants bad?  Poop is acceptable, shit is not.  Why?  Don't get me wrong, my kids don't walk around cussing like sailors (at least not in my presence) but does anyone know?

As for taking care of sexually molested children - WOW.  That's a big one.  How about we work to stop it in the first place?  How about we have services that actually heal the children before they grow up so emotionally damaged that they molest children themselves or continue on with their victimization role and marry someone who molests their children?  It's generational folks and it still happens every day and our society, while opening up about it in small measures, still has a tendency to look the other way.  I know this.  I'm one of those “statistics”.  I have radar when it comes to sexually molested children and it still happens, and happens, and happens and John's blog isn't the problem, nor do I feel it could possibly have any cause or effect on the problem, other than the Butterfly Effect and God knows, how do we control such things?  We do not.

Now I'm a little worked up.  If anyone is worried about molested children, put your money where your mouth is, or put your energy where it belongs and get out there and DO something about it.  (Jon, you are obviously exempt from this last statement).

Whew. 

Love, Ayla

Gandhi said ”it must begin with the children”

and…

Be the change you want to see in the world…right?

Cool Gaia seems to have at least…. started…. to take his spin on things.

If kids think Gaia is “weird” as Ayla states…………………………hmmmmmm wonder how that will effect marketing….

I would like to see Gaia grow WITH the kids on the planet.

J

It's not just children who might read the conversations and posts and comments here, but anyone in the world. Even if a public post is later made private or deleted, Google (and search engines like it) have already archived a copy. I've assumed that everyone one here would be comfortable with their friends and colleagues (or future acquaintences) seeing both what they've posted and their relationship or connection to the topic in general, but in case there are those who might be unhappy with the fact that something they've written is now part of the public historical record, this post might be worth a read. Gaia might feel safe, but the windows are glass and everyone and anyone you know could easily see in.

And I might be overly senstive to such things; in the past (back when the internet was much younger) I posted online and in forums in ways I ended up regretting, not so much because of what I said, but because of how those posts got linked to from other sites and by other people who weren't as understanding or compassionate as those I'd been 'talking with' originally. Your skin is may very well be tougher than mine, or you might have more confident that your life situation won't change. If not, though, I do think Paul's little, “Would I be okay with my grandmother reading this?”  (or the reminder in the article that posting anything online is equivalent to having it printed in a newspaper) is a valuable question.

Do you all not see yet that each time siona posts …the negative complaints and comparisons increase, and the lovely sharing from inner self without screening first what anyone else might think decreases??  And you are all allowing yourselves to be redirected away from your centers and away from your own juice.  In fact you are letting the negative feed on your juice and pull you back down like a lobster in a tank. 

We all have free will to allow this.  We all have free will to ignore.  There have been no posts of people crying out for help, unless with the energies that they put across to wish to stay within their inner bounds, and since they have not control of this to assert to control what others say, do, or think. 

In order to convert this feeling and to allow even Siona to continue to post as a human and as a function of her job.  I can simply convert it.  So can the rest of you.  Sharing thoughts and expression of things is not also sharing a need for coming in line with a group consensus.  As you may have noted Heemes hasn't said a word. :)

The entire who said what to whom and when thing is high school dynamic, and that was not an insult.  If a person chooses to go in that direction the fun dies like a flower with no sun.  If the issues here had been I like chocolate swirl rocky road oreo pecan ice cream and Heemes had said gosh he could not imagine how I could do such a thing because he had his own personal views on why he liked preferred and found vanilla to be safer, would all of this still be occuring?  It often seems so much easier for humans to join a camp and to rally to the side of someone that is veiwed as needing support, rather than simply stating their own views individually in a manner that refuses to allow anyone to tell them otherwise.  Hearing and reading another's views in a side by side fashion seems to be an odd concept to many.  Come walk with me!!!

this is dedicated to Heemes :

“Carrying a poppy he passes through the quarrel. “~~-Issa, 1825.

deep bows Heemes_^_

Thank you, elisa…  From where I sit, it's less a matter of 'negative complaints and comparisons' and more a matter of fear or worry that one's own needs or independent perspective might get squished by some 'group concensus'. There's plenty of room in the world, though, and on the site, for everyone to be themeselves and to hold their own beliefs and get their needs (be they needs for safety or self-expression or understanding or respect or sex) met, and I love love love how your last paragraph captured that.

For now, though, I certainly don't mind playing the role of the Shadow. ;)

And Carla: Not just any cats, too, but super-intelligent ones with sharp senses of humor. ;) I didn't have a 'disclaimer' in mind; more some acknowledgment that the discussion was being embarked upon from a place of awareness rather than unconsciousness.

I think we've all had tons of fun with this. I have. Nothing like having your buttons pushed to show you where your buttons are. What a rush! You found my pissed off button. You found my turned on button. This button squirts… juice or venom, push it I dare ya! We'll both find out.

To Siona and all others,
I must express gratitude that Gaia/Zaadz is here, cause I have met on and now off line people who have unzipped me. I feel like I have all the permission I need to be as unzipped as I want to be.

I love it when others are too, the more unzipped the better. When we all hang out together it is easy to forget there are other points of view. Good to know, and I'd rather find out by pushing someone's fear or disgust button than to anticipate they might have one that I ought not to push. This is exactly what was going on with some of my boundaries problems I wrote about this week. It doesn't work, and I won't do it any more.

The only thing I want to acknowledge regarding the loosy-joocy conversation that happens here it to say this: Gaians want to save the world? Here's how: pull sexuality out of the shadows where it has been a tool for enslavement. The more light-hearted, fun-loving, raw, edgy, and bold we can be about it, the faster  the world will get saved.

Hallelujah!

You don't have to believe me, but from starving children to global warming, to the immigration problem to war, to economic collapse, and social injustice., it is all about sex.

This is a great example of an actual dialogue – one that includes multiple points of view and varying perspectives. Otherwise, it's a monologue that just happens to have the words coming out of several different mouths. Diverse points of view are wonderful; and here, they have, for the most part, been expressed respectfully (aka consciously).

Thanks to all – Paul, John, Jon, Carla and all of the people who have expressed and shared perspectives and musings on each blog post. This is rich - like a beautiful mosaic created with the Word.

And I appreciated Siona's participation, too, since it raised an important perspective about the ripple effect, and calls each of us to a place of consciousness. It's a great question, opening the possibility of greater mindfulness. We still arrive at whatever decision we arrive at, but perhaps having given it more thought. A good thing. :)

The very nature of this conversation takes the lid off a whole buncha different issues, hot buttons, passions, and so on, which is reflected in the dialogues in the various blog entries and reply posts. Fantastic. For example, it hadn't occurred to me that children would be reading various entries (and you know some of them would head right to the ones on sex), but I'm all for parental responsibility and good discussion about healthy sexuality rather than repressing the whole subject. And the discussions here seem, for the most part, to be healthy.

Thanks again to all of you for a rich conversation. I hope it continues, in whatever blog or former it jumps to next.

Joyful Blessings,
Jamie

Wow - after reading John's, Jon's and now Paul's posts I don't know where to begin.

So I'll go straight to the end:

I take this site as a venue for intelligent, respectful, and uninhibited conversation about any subject among adults of uncommon sensibility.

I write publicly on several blogs.  I don't restrain what I say on any of them except to be respectful of dissenting opinion.  So if it comes to a choice between blogger's regret and liver's regret I choose the former.

Sexuality is central to the human experience and needs to be more openly and widely discussed.  I fathered and raised two well-adjusted young women.  Included in that upbringing was a complete openness about sex and sexuality. 

If my mother, or Aunt Tilly, whoever, found my missives embarassing for whatever reason, well, too bad.

As Carla put it: “Our comfort zone is killing us!”  Exactly.

Hi wish I could have posted sooner but my daughter vomited on my keyboard and  only got a new one today…which i'm getting used to so excuse the weird punctuation.
I followed this through yesterday and today and am always pleased when we see shifts like this from ideas to dialogue. this has been a wonderful dialogue and I thank you for this.
When i finished work this morning I noticed an ad for air conditioning. Basically it said air conditioning or no sex this summer. Here in Montreal it gets really hot…sweltering in the summer,so it was funny.
I have been here for 20 yrs,and am still enamored with this city. It;s architecture,it;s beauty,it's people. I have lived in a few big cities but this one is different not just bc it is french but bc it is so open so embracing of new ideas it's impossible not to get caught up in the energy.
There is an underlying sensual vibe that seduces many and we stay bc this vibe is conducive to growth. An embracing of many aspects of self not the usual work home sleep vibe that permeates many palces..i'm sure that for some they find this here too but it is not the norm this city is open!
As a mother I thought about what you had to say,how you felt it wasn't appropriate for children,I thought about how I approach motherhood then and now and I feel that my job is not to shield my children from this life but to accompany then on their journey…sexuality a part of it.
My husband and I are affectionate,kiss often hug each other and our children. Our bodies beautiful,to be celebrated.Not to be shielded away in shame,or fear.
I would not invite my children to watch me make love nor would I feel comfortable either,intimacy is that a moment intimate between myself and my husband. A expression of love in a pure form a delicious form.  That said i do not hide the fact that i am many things a sexual being one of them. there is a difference between expressing oneself in a healthy way that doesn't hide your wholeness. In hiding yourself you give a message that what you are is something to be ashamed of…and that leads to many unhealthy things.
I want to rejoice in me in my love for myself and others physical and emotional…and I am who I am in front of you here and at home with my children. I know this is appropriate for me and those around me,bc being oneself is the biggest gift you can give.
I think you are sweet and kind and I imagine that we have all done some soul searching this week-end which once again I want to thank you for :-)